In honor of #Tyranny10, I am dusting off this interview with Ted Leo that I conducted on May 25th, 2001, in his van outside of Brownies on Avenue A in New York City. It was done for the final issue of the great Washington, D.C. 'zine Held Like Sound. The Tyranny of Distance was less than a month from being released, and I had been seeing Ted Leo play all over town for the preceding year or so.*
* ("I was there" show boastings: I've been a Ted Leo fan for years, and was lucky to see Chisel a bunch of times (at places like the Jabberjaw in L.A.; the Black Cat in D.C.; and an incredible pair of shows opening for Lungfish and Fugazi at First Avenue in Minneapolis, MN in 1995). I saw the Pharmacists play a bunch of times after Tyranny was released, including an amazing show at a Loews movie theater in Jersey City. I've seen Ted play a bunch of record shop in-stores, and I was even in attendance at an incredibly depressing show at the San Diego State student union on Election night in 2004 when Bush was re-elected).
I probably played The Tyranny of Distance more than any album in the first half of the 2000s, and I put it on for the first time in a long time while I typed this out from the 'zine. Man, there's not a bum note on the thing. If you haven't heard it in a while (or, god forbid, ever), treat yourself. And pick up all the rest of the guy's discography while you're at it.
So yeah – the introduction I wrote to this interview is pretty cringe-y (and I have no idea if my facts were even correct – was he actually using an Echoplex or a reel-to-reel? I have no idea...), and my questions were probably way too fixated on the PUNK question. It had just been announced that his new album would be released on Lookout Records, which was a surprising thing to lots of people - hence a big chunk of the discussion on that topic. Anyway, it's a fun little time capsule. Enjoy!
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There's a great story about infamous "outsider"/maniac/psycho-billy/one-man-band Hasil Adkins: When The Haze – as his fans know him – was just a tiny tot somewhere in the fringes of the Appalachian Mountains, his mother used to blast big band music as she worked on household chores. At the end of every song, the D.J. would announce something like, "That was Glenn Miller...," or "That was a new one from Artie Shaw..." Little Hasil was impressed. "All that sound is coming from one guy?!," he thought to himself. So he taught himself to play as many different instruments as he could get his hands on – at the same time. The result: Skewed proto-punk masterpieces like "No More Hot Dogs" and "She Said."
D.C./NYC/Boston songwriter Ted Leo is from a similar breed of D.I.Y. savants. When his hyperactive – and often misunderstood – mod-punk outfit Chisel broke up nearly 5 years ago, Leo soldiered on into the murky solo-artist territory that has been unkind to so many former-frontmen-of-once-great-bands. Not only did Leo emerge unscathed, though, he came out energized and amped, with a forceful batch of songs that demanded that jaded punk kids try to think outside the box. He played the songs, too – anywhere and everywhere, and to anyone who would listen. Often accompanied only by his guitar, a tricked-out Echoplex, and a reel-to-reel player of backing tracks, Ted Leo would stop hipster crowds in their tracks. "All that sound is coming from one guy?!," they wondered.
Ted Leo has a band again now, and he's still making noise – both literally and figuratively.
Held Like Sound: So when did you make the switch from James (Canty) on the drums to James on the guitar? The last time I saw you guys was at Bowery Ballroom with Cave-In and Rainer Maria, and there was a different bassist.
Ted: That was a line-up born out of necessity. Don't get me wrong, it was a great line-up, and it was fun, and it worked really well, but that was more just like – "Hey, I need people now. I can't play my new songs alone!" James and I have played together off and on for a number of years, and he's mostly played the guitar all that time. It was kind of exciting to get him back behind the kit again, which he hasn't done since Nation of Ulysses. But that line up was more just a timing thing.
HLS: And the line up is completely different from the Ace Fu EP (Treble in Trouble, 2000), right?
Ted: No, James played guitar on that, but it was Amy Farina from The Warmers on drums and Jodi from the Secret Stars on bass.
HLS: So I suppose this is the really obvious question, but how did you end up on Lookout?
Ted: I've been friends with Chris and Molly, who run it, for years. Molly's from D.C., you know, from Bratmobile. And even way back with Chisel, we always had this "Hey, if you ever want to do anything..." thing with them. Don't get me wrong, we were really happy with Gern Blandsten. We just always had this casual "maybe we'll do something" thing with Lookout. And then last year I was in San Francisco, and we started talking a little more seriously about it, and they were expressing a desire to expand their oeuvre, and I felt like I kind of needed to step it up a notch.
HLS: The way I've always perceived that label is that it's a pretty big operation, and they sort of cater to a consistent fanbase.
Ted: Well, it's a pretty big label, but it's not as big as you think it is. I mean, they have a couple of acts who sell A LOT of records. Basically they still sell more Op Ivy records and Green Day records that anything. Oh, and The Donnas do really well. The Queers to well, too, I guess. But I mean, they don't have a huge office with like 50 people working there, and there's no contracts unless the artist wants one – I mean, they'll give you one if you wants, but you don't have to have one.
HLS: And they're moving towards taking in some different sounding bands?
Ted: Yeah. They're definitely trying to branch out a bit.
HLS: Is the Lookout tag going to change how you do things?
Ted: I don't think I could do anything more that I HAVE been doing for the last few years, you know? It's like... I kind of work my ass off! I play all the fucking time, even when I'm not out on tour, I play half of every month.
HLS: No, I know it – I moved to New York about a year ago and I've seen you almost 15 times since then!
Ted: Yeah. And every time I have some new songs, I make a new record. There's not much more it could change about they way I do things. I mean, the only difference so far is that, on this tour – after we split with Q and Not U – we were headlining most of the shows, and we were playing clubs – which means you have to play later, which I hate, and that's kind of a drag. But they haven't asked anything special of me. Well, as far as promotion goes, I guess I'm going to have to be doing more interviews, but that's not any big deal.
HLS: I'm just curious, I guess... I'm from Bethesda (Maryland, a suburb just outside of D.C.), but before I came to New York I was living in California for the last seven years, and there's such a following out there for the pop-punk Lookout stuff. And your stuff just seems so different from what I associate with Lookout. Let me ask you this: Have you checked out the section they have for you on the Lookout website? They have this message board on there, and people have been commenting...
Ted: I made a rule a couple years ago to never read any of my own press again.
HLS: Really?
Ted: Unless somebody really says to me, "No, check this out, this is really good." Not just because bad reviews bum you out, but often even good reviews bum you out. Because they miss the point.
HLS: "This is awesome, but it's just like The Jam."
Ted: Exactly. "Pop songs! Pop pop pop pop pop!" Whatever, you know? Just scratch the surface for once, and there's a lot more going on. I haven't looked at the Lookout site. But I've heard some things... I guess some people think it's great, and some people are like "This sucks!"
HLS: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. The opinions are completely polar... there's some kids on there saying "this is the best thing Lookout's put out," an there's some people who are like "what the hell is this?! This isn't like the Groovie Ghoulies! This isn't fast or pogo-y!"
Ted: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I figure I can't LOSE an audience from being on Lookout. I don't think that anybody who would have bought my records before is going to NOT buy them because they're on Lookout. If more people can get a hold of the record because it's on Lookout, then great.
HLS: So this is more nebulous... I guess this is a pretty obnoxious question, but hear me out. Where, I guess, do you see yourself fitting in as far as "punk"? Here's where I ask this: I think you have the standout interview in the Punk Planet book (We Owe You Nothing, Akashic Books, 2001). I think that it's the one that is challenging, interesting, and forward thinking as far as what I consider to be "punk." And in your lyrics, you've never shied away from the kind of slogans you don't get from punk anymore: "Cheers for the young idea!," and "Here is the latest dart / I'm aiming it straight for your heart." But your music doesn't fall under a lot of people's definition of what "punk" is supposed to sound like. Do you get frustrated when people say you're not punk?
Ted: Sure. It bums me out, because I do everything I can to stay on this side of that line. Except for limiting myself artistically. Which, in and of itself, in my mind, is punk! I've really made it a point over the last four years, since I've been playing solo, to keep playing to the quote-unquote punk audiences. And more often that not, I found it usually worked. If only because it was off-putting at first to people who'd never seen me, to see me get up there alone and play – and I don't play quiet, or acoustically – so it would make the kids stop and listen for a minute. You know – "what's this all about?" But there always have been, and there still are those times where – and the older I get, the more I find this – people look onstage and if you don't look right... let me put it this way. I find that there are times when it's clear that people in the audience don't want to hear what I have to say and I find that it's because I look older! Not because I sound different, but because I look older. At least, that's the impression I get: The second I walk onstage, it's like "oh, look at these guys... they're not wearing patches; I'm not going to pay attention to them."
HLS: Right, right. This is what I mean... I guess I'm just always interested in the disparity between different people's definitions of "punk." In one camp, you've got the socially aware, open-minded, ready-to-accept-artistic-growth-type people, and they proudly call themselves "punk," and then you have something totally different – these unoriginal, women-baiting type bands- you know, one of the things that never fails to amaze me is Maximum Rock 'n' Roll – it's hideous! They had this whole thing a little while ago where they refused to review Atom & His Package's stuff...
Ted: Right! But they'll review every fucking beer drinking garage band on Sympathy for the Record Industry that's got naked tits all over the covers and all that! Look – there shouldn't be a codified definition for "what is punk." I mean... there's definitely things where you can say "that's NOT punk." If anything, most of it overlaps into this grey area. You have to look at the intent of the artist. I'm sire Atom ideologically considers what he does to be punk, you know? Same with Sean Na Na. Myself. Lots of other bands. If you put a little effort in, and pay a little more attention to what they're on about, it might become a little more apparent. Unfortunately, people just don't want to put that effort in, and that's when it gets frustrating.
HLS: So back to the thing I mentioned before, your slogans, or – for lack of a more appropriate term – catchphrases...
Ted: Sure.
HLS: Well – as a reference point, this is bad, because I really like this band, but take The Make-Up. I mean, I don't doubt their sincerity, but there's certainly something tongue-in-cheek about what they did. I guess I'm just wondering where these catchphrases of yours come from.
Ted: Well, I don't set out to write catchphrases. I mean, I'm not going to lie to you and say that when I came up with the "latest dart" idea, I wasn't psyched... I just think that sometimes you need to put an exclamation point on your point. And hence, "cheers for the young idea."
HLS: I'm more going after whether or not these things are informed by any cynicism.
Ted: Oh, I see what you're saying.
HLS: As a guy who's playing this brand of rock to these punk-tuned crowds...
Ted: Right, right, totally! Yes! In fact, yeah, "The Latest Dart" and "Warmer Music" are informed by a kind of frustration with the complacency with peers, and audiences. And wanting to shake people, and kick them in the ass in a way that goes to their head and makes their ass move.
HLS: So you've got this sort of idealistic – without the negative connotation of being "naïve" – take on things. Usually when somebody's going to come out with a big, bold statement, they have to pour irony all over it.
Ted: Irony is an amazing tool, but it's to be used sparingly. I want to provide an alternative to that.
HLS: I wanted to ask you about something from that aforementioned Punk Planet interview, where you were talking about the Blur song ("Song 2," aka "Woo Hoo"), and how people give in to guilty pleasures too easily.
Ted: You know what? That was said for effect, largely. Not to back off from the statement... but I like the new Nelly Furtado song! I mean, if you're a fan of music, you're a fan of music. I used to have this ongoing argument with a friend of mine who would go on and on about how much she hated The Beatles. I was always like, "How? No!," but it was like a punk thing. She was like, "No, fuck that, everybody likes The Beatles," and I kind of understood where she was coming from. I wouldn't go THAT far, but it's the same kind of sentiment that drove me to say that you shouldn't let that Blur song in.
HLS: You were just urging people to challenge themselves.
Ted: Right. I mean, there were specific issues I had with that song. Like, "Oh, now they're doing their "American Rock" record," and kids eat it up, and I'm like, "there's plenty of fuckin' American rock bands doing that just as well!" I mean, it's like all music. I like the first Skrewdriver record, before they evidenced their... white power tendencies! It's a great record, and I'm not afraid to say it, you know?"
HLS: That's going to be the pull quote, by the way: "Ted Leo says: 'I like... Skrewdriver." (Laughter)
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